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Installation Talk Questions/Concerns and help involving the installation of a Guardian Automatic Generator

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Old February 18th, 2014   #151
ceb58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginaelectric View Post
In that photo it comes before the service but in our case the transfer switch
is service rated and the neutral and ground is bonded at it so it is a separately derived system, We place the main grounding conductor in the transfer switch that has a main breaker making it the main panel. The existing panel then becomes a sub panel and the grounds and neutrals are separated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canada_Guy View Post
Your post was kind of hard to follow, (I don't know what you're referring to when you say "it comes before the service) but it sounds like you are indicating that a Generac home generator is a considered a separately derived system? And This is because the transfer switch is service rated and the neutral and ground is bonded at the transfer switch?
I agree with CG. What are you referring to? The only way the generator would be considered a separately derived system would be if the neutral was switched in the transfer switch with the generator neutral and grounding electrode conductor bonded in the generator. This would be rare for a residential setup.
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Old February 20th, 2014   #152
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From Bob Cramer at Generac
This is Bob Cramer answering your concern. that the breaker in the generator is "suitable for use as service equipment". Because some inspectors and others don't understand how to interpret this article in the code, clarity was added in the 2014 NEC (702.12, 445.18) edition. In other words the "suitable for use as service equipment" requirement has been removed from 225.36, so the whole discussion is now moot.

Re: Generator disconnect

In the event that an inspector misinterprets the installation or use of the generator and considers it a service instead of a feeder, the following document can be submitted to the inspector for review. If you need further information or additional documentation please e-mail me (bob.cramer@generac.com) with the inspectors contact e-mail and I will send him or her the complete file. You can also obtain the stickers identified below from your inside sales rep.

File AU3493 Vol. 1 Sec. 27 Page 20 Issued: 2013-02-06
and Report Revised: 2013-06-25

Service Equipment Option – Fig 6-8

General – Represents all models covered by this Report. The field wiring

compartment described in Fig. 6-8 of this Report has been evaluated as

suitable for use as service equipment when provided with the following

additional described items. In situations in which this compartment is used

as service equipment, this compartment has been evaluated for field wiring

applications.

1. Bonding Jumper – Not provided. Provided in the field by the customer.

2. Installation Instructions – The installation instructions shall include

a statement indicating that for installations that require the neutral

to be bonded to ground, that it is to be done between the neutral and

ground terminal bus within the customer connection area of the genset.

3. Marking for Service Equipment – Any R/C (PGDQ2) marking and labeling

system suitable for the surface and application in which it is applied.

This marking shall state: “Suitable for use as service equipment” and

be provided in an envelope, or on a card, with instructions to apply

near the disconnect handle of the equipment if used as service

equipment.

4. Marking for Service Disconnect - Any R/C (PGDQ2) marking and labeling

system suitable for the surface and application in which it is applied.

This marking shall state: “Service Disconnect” and be provided in an

envelope, or on a card, with instructions to apply near the disconnect

handle of the equipment if used as service equipment.

5. Grounding Electrode Terminal –(Field Wiring) –(Located outside of

genset on enclosure which is bonded to ground) Any Listed (ZMVV)

terminal used within its ratings and suitable for the application and

sized to accept 8 AWG copper wire.

6. Marking for Grounding Electrode Terminal - Any R/C (PGDQ2) marking and

labeling system suitable for the surface and application in which it is

applied. This marking shall state: “Grounding Electrode Terminal”.
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Old February 21st, 2014   #153
iflyhelis
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Is this pertaining to my install?
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Old February 21st, 2014   #154
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Is this pertaining to my install?
Well, yes because there was no disconnect installed at or at the closest point of entry. It could be an issue since yours is an older unit that may or may not fall under the new listing of the breaker on the generator.
This is something I would not loose any sleep over. You have bigger fish to fry with the poor install.
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Old February 21st, 2014   #155
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There seems to be few places that enforce this. They are supposed to have a label to be applied that shows that this is listed for such. I took a look at a new one I purchased sitting in the shop and its not on it. Apparently I can get them. I think this will fly for the 11 code, but I think there is an issue for the 14, though it no longer needs to be service rated, I believe it has to be visible, so not sure whether this helps us or not. He's on the 14 in MA.
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Old February 21st, 2014   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrp3 View Post
There seems to be few places that enforce this. They are supposed to have a label to be applied that shows that this is listed for such. I took a look at a new one I purchased sitting in the shop and its not on it. Apparently I can get them. I think this will fly for the 11 code, but I think there is an issue for the 14, though it no longer needs to be service rated, I believe it has to be visible, so not sure whether this helps us or not. He's on the 14 in MA.
Only thing is, this thread was started in late Oct. 2013 after the gen. was installed. This would make the install subject to the 2011 NEC.
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Old February 21st, 2014   #157
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I'll have to get my hands on some of these elusive labels. Would work for the 11 if accepted.
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Old February 22nd, 2014   #158
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Back to reality
#1 NEC does not require listing of equipment
Equipment must be approved by the AHJ
AHJ can require listing if equipment does not appear to be suitable for use as intended. ( if it is listed you must follow instructions in listing)

Genset built in disconnect.
It is a listed breaker,
It can withstand available fault current
It has listed lugs
It has adequate wire bending space
It has a dead front
It will be within site (typically) of building served
It has its own compartment and or box
It is suitable for the environment it is used in.
It is readily accessible
It has a cover

As stated previously by Generac If you are going to install the unit as a separate service (bond neutral in unit , switch neutral is transfer, ect,) labels are available from your field rep. They do not come with the standard unit.
The unit is built as is suitable for use as a service with modification.
Back to the ground rod issue.( the label kit will also provide a sticker which would be applied at the grounding electrode lug on he exterior of the unit because if you were using the genset as a service, as this is the only time a rod and or a separate grounding electrode system would be required )
I cannot see any benefit or logical reason to require a second disconnect in this type of installation. The only time I require a second disconnect is when the unit is not within sight of the building served.
If I worked in your area I would contact my field rep and obtain a bunch of stickers, rather than waste my time installing a redundant disconnect.
Or I guess I could waste my time and money and install a $15 nonfused service rated ac disconnect.
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Old February 22nd, 2014   #159
ceb58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrp3 View Post
There seems to be few places that enforce this. They are supposed to have a label to be applied that shows that this is listed for such. I took a look at a new one I purchased sitting in the shop and its not on it. Apparently I can get them. I think this will fly for the 11 code, but I think there is an issue for the 14, though it no longer needs to be service rated, I believe it has to be visible, so not sure whether this helps us or not. He's on the 14 in MA.
In NC it is illegal to connect equipment to a dwelling that has not been listed by a NRTL. Generac has now came off some money and had the breaker in the generator listed. Before it was not recognized by UL as suitable for service equipment.
Its no different than when Generac had in their install instructions that a rod must be driven and attached to the unit. They changed their position and instructions to "follow local grounding codes".
As a licensed electrical contractor it is my/our responsibility to install the equipment to all applicable codes. If the install is done wrong and even if the inspector passes the install we are responsible if something happens.
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Old February 23rd, 2014   #160
iflyhelis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceb58 View Post
Well, yes because there was no disconnect installed at or at the closest point of entry. It could be an issue since yours is an older unit that may or may not fall under the new listing of the breaker on the generator.
This is something I would not loose any sleep over. You have bigger fish to fry with the poor install.
I'll find out on Tuesday when they fix the problems. I hope the electrical inspector shows up.

After it takes place, I'll post the results.
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